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Forum: Collecting Items

Topic: En Concierto En Mexico discussion

This topic contains 14 replies, has 1,786 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of manillascissor manillascissor 8 years, 6 months ago.

On manillascissor wrote:

Taken from another thread:

and my first though was also \"en concierto en mexico\", but in that case i’d be less excited. i think it’s very suspicious that there are two versions already. and although i’m not 100% sure, i think the numbered one is a fake.[/quote:1192tus7]

Yeah, it is very curious to have two versions already. 3 would be a bit much.[/quote:1192tus7]

Numbered one?? I would wager that a numbered one would be fake, to be honest. It isn’t ECIM, as I’ve already owned that previously. This is something I’ve never owned before and again, we know of 2 different versions, and the one I will be receiving will make it the 3rd version out there.[/quote:1192tus7]

there are two different versions on spfreaks.com. the numbered one looks suspicious. it also has logos from virgin and hut on the back. very strange. apparently there is a reason to believe it’s real anyway, because it’s listed under the official cd releases instead of the bootlegs. if someone knows what that reason is, please let me know. if the only reason is what is in the extra information (\"As the glossy artwork is exactly the same as the other type, we presume it’s genuine.\") then i think we should retract that reason, because the artwork isn’t exactly the same. the front seems to be a copy, so it indeed looks the same (but the colours are worse), but the back is not the same. both versions show a part of the adore cover (zoomed in), but they don’t show the same part. and then there’s of course the fact that out of nowhere, there’s a hut and virgin logo, and the fact that it’s numbered. makes no sense to me.

version 1: http://www.spfreaks.com/default.aspx?pa … LS&item=78
version 2 (the suspicious one): http://www.spfreaks.com/default.aspx?pa … S&item=991[/quote:1192tus7]
Let me give you some more details about these 2 items on SPfreaks.com. The first one, presumed genuine, comes from my collection. I bought it years ago from, here we go, Shawn (Collectspumpkins). 2002? 2003? Doesn’t matter really, but it was scanned in November 2003, so I surely must have had it before that. As Shawn told me it is a genuine copy of this extremely rare Mexican promo, and I trust him 100+% for telling his fellow collectors the truth, I think it is very fair to believe we can use this one for reference. Right? With me?

The other SPfreaks upload (the numbered one) comes from an eBay auction held in January 2007. I don’t know the seller nor buyer anymore, but it exchanged ownership for somewhere between 750-1,000 (less then 1,000 anyway) if I’m right, but maybe 1 of you can recall the actual amount. With age sometimes \"wishful thinking\" comes in… It might have been way less that amount… :wink: The auction went on without troubles if I remember well, and I downloaded the pics to have a closer look at them and compare this copy on auction with the one I owned for a few years already at that time. I had no reasons to believe the copy on eBay was fake. It was uploaded on SPfreaks as a second copy of this Mexican promo in April 2008, if I’m right, as I noticed some tiny differences with my copy (the numbering, the logos).

Now, let’s have a closer look at the pics. And let me tell you some things about my copy, things that are not visible on the scans. And let me share some random thoughts also…

Front of the jewelcase of my copy

Front of the jewelcase of the one auctioned on eBay

Back of the jewelcase of my copy

Back of the jewelcase of the one auctioned on eBay

My CD

CD as auctioned on eBay

Live‘, which has no reference to the title of the cd, nor does it give any info about the venue/date where the songs were recorded. We do know however, that it was recorded at \"Palacio de los Deportes, Mexico City, Mexico, 1998/08/11\". Very interesting to note, is that the inside artwork of the jewelcase on the eBay pic (see cd pic, left side) is EXACTLY the same as on my copy. No capitols in the text down left, same Adore pic, etc. If you want, I can make a proper scan of the inside artwork of my copy, so you can compare it with this eBay pic.

Now, does this all make sense? Let’s (try to) step in the shoes of a bootlegger.

\"Hi, I’m Motecuma Quilatzti, and I have a genuine copy of that radio promo. I’m going to make a bootleg copy of it and make some bucks on eBay. Hehe, screw you, Pumpkins fans! So, let’s number it on the front, and let’s add some logos on the back to give it more credibility. I’m sure they won’t notice that I made a little mistake with the back artwork. And for the cd, ah, what the heck, I cannot get a gold cd anyway, so an unwritten silver cd will do!\"

My problem with this scenario is, if a bootlegger had a genuine copy (he must have had one, to get so close to the original copy, don’t you think so?), then why didn’t he just copy the artwork as is? Why put more effort in it? And on the other hand, why no effort on the cd? OK, we do know, for example with the Earphoria 1994 bootlegs, that very silly mistakes have been made (color of the text on the cd, typos in the text on the cd, color of the artwork of the cd), and because of these mistakes, we can separate the bootlegs from the original 1994 Earphoria. But all in all, what I suggested above (\"Both of these types of artwork could have circulated inside the radio station, and could have been used for making this promo.\"), makes a little more sense to me. To me, both are genuine, but they both have a slightly different background.

Of course I’m very curious what you think about this matter, and my thoughts!

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

One more question: the front insert of your copy, is it single or double (folded)? And do you know if the eBay version has a single or a double front insert? I can’t really tell from the pictures, but maybe someone else can.

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

One more question: the front insert of your copy, is it single or double (folded)? And do you know if the eBay version has a single or a double front insert? I can’t really tell from the pictures, but maybe someone else can.[/quote:85i11zh2]
It is double (folded) with not text inside. Just plain white when being opened. Rather good paper quality, shiny, but the artwork (which was done with a laser printer I presume), which is shiny too, but it obviously doesn’t come from a really pro printing machine. I think it was done with a standard office machine. And the eBay copy looks folded to me, but that’s just a wild guess based on these pics…

And for me, I’m very interested in Shawn’s story, how and where he got it from… 8)

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

Where did you get the story that the cd was given away by the radio station as a prize in a contest? I never heard that before.

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

My problem with this scenario is, if a bootlegger had a genuine copy (he must have had one, to get so close to the original copy, don’t you think so?), then why didn’t he just copy the artwork as is?[/quote:9lpn06t8]
that’s a good question. i wondered the same thing.

maybe the bootlegger didn’t have a copy, or not the complete thing. for example: he only had the audio and a scan of the front insert. maybe he even found these online.
so he had to recreate the back insert. (maybe he had seen the back, or he had seen a picture of it, but he didn’t have a good scan, so he couldn’t really use the picture.)

it would be interesting to have an audio rip of the second version. if the bootlegger got the audio online, as mp3s, we would be able to detect that and close this case for good.

right now i agree that it’s still open, but i’m still leaning towards bootleg. the fact that this one showed up only in 2007 is also a bit suspicious, in my opinion.

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

Where did you get the story that the cd was given away by the radio station as a prize in a contest? I never heard that before.[/quote:27s6cm92]
I think Shawn told me that.

And who else owns a copy of En Concierto En Mexico anyway? And can help us in this discussion?

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of manillascissor
Keymaster
On manillascissor wrote:

I don’t own this CD. Now I’m a little apprehensive to even bid on one. Both could be genuine, but for such a limited pressing, why would they make two versions? It just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, but it could be possible. :?:

in my time of dying
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

I agree with that sentiment: for such a limited release, why make two different versions?

And this has stopped me from bidding on previous eBay auctions. Just the thought that one of the two versions is very likely to be fake, and not being 100% sure which one. Nobody wants to pay a couple of hundred of dollars for a fake.

Although, if you give it some thought, the easy conclusion is that the gold cd-r version (without numbering, without hut and virgin logo) has to be the real version.

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

And this has stopped me from bidding on previous eBay auctions.[/quote:22i74wk8]
How many times have you seen it on eBay? Just curious, as I only have seen it once, the one from the extra upload…

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

I’ve only seen it a couple of times. Two or three times. Not more.

The last one I remember was the gold cd-r version, but the cd didn’t have any text written on it.

Profile photo of manillascissor
Keymaster
On manillascissor wrote:

The one time I saw it, it sold for $1,400.

in my time of dying
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

wow. that last one i saw was 300 or 400 pounds, i think. and i don’t think it got sold.

Profile photo of amnesia
Member
On amnesia wrote:

The one time I saw it, it sold for $1,400.[/quote:1hgp8b5o]

Holy shit. :shock:

When was that Manilla ?

In loving memory of Bimbolin.
Profile photo of Sven
Participant
On Sven wrote:

just my 2 cents-

Arhtur’s copy to me is genuine one-

The other copy is a bootleg-

Anyone could have found either a real promo or a good rip or anything (heck: I had the show from the promo pretty soon after the release of the promo)….

This was a Radio Promo (and give-away) in Mexico-
In really limited numbers; you just don’t DO 2 different versions as far as I am concerned….

Either one is real-
Apart from Shawn’s copy I think I’ve seen one other one just the same once, somewhere…

So-
I’d say Arthur’s/Shawn’s copy is the real deal…
The rest nudges towards a knock-off like with Earphoria et al….

Might be wrong- just my 2 cents and gut-feeling about this now—-

Profile photo of manillascissor
Keymaster
On manillascissor wrote:
The one time I saw it, it sold for $1,400.[/quote:1531q27m]

Holy shit. :shock:

When was that Manilla ?[/quote:1531q27m]

Like in 2003/04. Somewhere in there if I remember correctly.

in my time of dying

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