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Forum: Collecting Items

Topic: mellon collie lp, a few questions ???

This topic contains 50 replies, has 14,558 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Arthur Arthur 9 years, 5 months ago.

On Arthur wrote:

i just got back from the record store and they had a mellon collie LP
i already own 1 of them but the one i already have is numbered, but the one in the record store didnt have a number or or a small white space were the number should be, is this a bootleg or what kind of mellon collie lp version is this ????

i hope you can help me out thanks :)

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

Hey Lara, nice to see you here. Welcome on board! Just a quick note of what I can find about it (as this unnumbered release is not on our SPfreaks site yet to compare the pics), but this is what SPFC says.

\"In late 1998, the MCIS 3LP was repressed. The new pressing is unnumbered (leaving the number box empty), and the sleeve is made of flimsier material.\"

As the one you just saw today doesn’t have the number box, you either found a slightly different version of this 1998 repress, or a bootleg indeed. I couldn’t tell more I’m afraid. But I’m sure 1 of the hardcore vinyl collectors here will fully answer this soon. There are quite a few here on this little board already.

In the meantime maybe you could tell us if the vinyl labels of this unnumbered version are the same to your numbered version (colors, text, artwork)? And about the sleeve, did you notice anything particular/strange? Maybe your answers helps to detect the authenticity of this album.

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of Lara
Member
On Lara wrote:

thank you for welocoming me :)
but the sleeve and records are exactly the same :S
but i also know that there are unnumbered versions, but they still have a white box, but this doesnt have a white box or number:S
btw, for the info im from the netehrlands :)
thanks for the reply :)

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

i have never seen a copy without the white number box. weird.

how close did you check for differences? are the matrix numbers identical?

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

Cool As Ice Cream is referring to the following codes on the vinyl itself, close to the label: HUTTLP 30 A-1-1-1, HUTTLP 30 B-1-1-1, HUTTLP 30 C-1-1-1 etc.

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of Lara
Member
On Lara wrote:

hey, first of all thanks for your helpwith this :)
i just got back from the store, and checked and listened to the records, everything looks perfect, no signgs of it being a bootler, but heres some nmbers ive found on it :

724384165512/ HUTTLP 30/ PRINTED IN EU

but i know the guy who owns the store and hes a big collector of vinyl, and he also checked and it doesnt seem to b a bootleg, but im just curious what it is and were its from

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Member
On Lara wrote:

i will post pics as soon as photobucket works again :)

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Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

exciting… :)

no, seriously, i’m interested.

Profile photo of Lara
Member
On Lara wrote:

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

Lara, can you confirm the matrix codes? And are you going to buy it? Otherwise I know somebody I recently met (Dutch guy working at the Free Record Shop @ Schiphol Airport Amsterdam, he happens to be a huge Smashing Pumpkins fan, he went to Pinkpop to see them, and he is looking for this MCIS vinyl, a numbered version though…) that might be interested.

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
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Member
On Lara wrote:

im going to buy it for sure :)
but ill check the matrix codes :)

Profile photo of Lara
Member
On Lara wrote:

but, if i buy this one ill 3 mint condition (1 still sealed) copy’s of the vynil, so i can sell one if he wants to …..
let me know:D , they wont be cheap though

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Member
On Lara wrote:

sorry for my bad englisch it’s early here :D

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Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

im going to buy it for sure :)
but ill check the matrix codes :)[/quote:28ukagp8]
You’re to greedy :P

Interesting find anyway Lara. For the moment I’m presuming it’s a genuine release. If you would be able to provide good scans after you bought it (see for example http://www.spfreaks.com/?page=COLLDETAILS&item=1100 ) then we can give it a proper entry for you in the SPfreaks Collection. Thanks!

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
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Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

but, if i buy this one ill 3 mint condition (1 still sealed) copy’s of the vynil, so i can sell one if he wants to …..
let me know:D , they wont be cheap though[/quote:jfpqi62q]
Talking about being a collector, wow!

If you ever go to Schiphol, he works in the Taxfree Shops section (See Fly Buy?), in the Free Record Shop. If you want I could give it a try and bring you in contact with him. Unlike eBay, SPfreaks asks no commission. 8)

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
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Member
On Lara wrote:

im not really a big collector there are certain things i really like. for example i own those vinyl, but i dont have the album on cd :P and i will scan it was alreay planned:D

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Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

how many copies does that store have?
and how much are they asking for one copy?
i am also interested…

Profile photo of Lara
Member
On Lara wrote:

i has 1 hell sell it probably around $80 ut im not sure
but to if youre really iterested i can send it to you….. im not making ay promises…..

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

yes, i’m definitely interested in a copy without the white box.
i think some letters are missing in your posts, so i don’t really understand what you’re saying.
maybe we should continue in dutch (i’m from belgium), via e-mail? my email address is coolasicecream at gmail punt com.

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

oh yes, another thing, this info might be useful when you check the matrix codes: http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=138675

as you can see, side c is most important, but maybe there are more differences?

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

i has 1 hell sell it probably around $80 ut im not sure
but to if youre really iterested i can send it to you….. im not making ay promises…..[/quote:1z03s5dw]
I’ll wait and see what "deal" comes out between you and Cool As Ice Cream. That other guy is not on top of my mind anyway. And Cool As Ice Cream is 1 of our beloved (geezz, I have to puke now… :lol: ) members.

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of breun
Participant
On breun wrote:

I have been looking for a MCIS vinyl forever (though not non stop) ever since I had one in my hands at a record market in Nijmegen, but somehow didn’t buy it. I didn’t know it was going to be rare back then, I had just bought my first SP cd. I’m from The Netherlands as well. If you have any spare copies for sale, I just might be interested.

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

Any news on this, Lara?

I’m still interested in a copy of this unnumbered and \"boxless\" version.

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

someone on netphoria, also from the netherlands, also found a copy in a record store, for only 35 euros.
http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=152587

would they really have re-released it? wow. i want two. :)

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Keymaster
On manillascissor wrote:

Interesting.

in my time of dying
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

i checked with my local vinyl shop owner and he can’t find this mellon collie re-release on his system, so he thinks it’s a pirated version.

he could be right. if this is out, and available in the netherlands, he would be able to order it too.

if this is indeed a bootleg, then they were probably made in the netherlands or in the neighborhood (germany?), since that is where the first copies showed up.

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

Belgium is famous for vinyl booties too. :wink:

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

you mean those old ones? (demo cuts, for example)

or are there more recent examples?

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

you mean those old ones? (demo cuts, for example)[/quote:30u3jrz1]
Yeah… I got to know them about half a year ago when an American collector of those "demo cuts" send in pics from his collection.

or are there more recent examples?[/quote:30u3jrz1]
No idea… Do we know where the Machina’s are being made? And think of it, when we find out here those "new" MCIS vinyls we are discussing here ARE booties… :shock:

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

is that a question?

i’m waiting for the matrix codes, and how they look like (stamped, or handwritten).
once we have these, i think it will be easier to decide if this new mcis vinyl is real or fake.

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

the person on netphoria said he could not find any codes on the vinyl.
there were codes on the sleeve and on the labels, but it is obvious that these will match with the ones of the original release, because, if this is a bootleg, they scanned the artwork, with these codes. so this info doesn’t help us much further.

together with the fact that the record store owner could not find the re-release on his system, the lack of matrix codes makes it almost certain that we are talking about a bootleg version here.

on the other hand, maybe they didn’t look close enough. i had the impression they had never heard of matrix codes before (which is ok, of course), and that they didn’t really feel like checking again because they didn’t really care (which is bad news for us, because we do want to know, of course).

did you end up buying a copy, lara? and if so, can you tell us what text is on the vinyl, near the label? (it’s always better to have a backup source for these kind of things.) thanks!

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Member
On Lara wrote:

nope ended up byuing this :

Machina II, Friends And Enemies Of Modern Music | Acetate (first test pressing) UK version

wich was extremely expensive :P

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Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

you mean the 4 cd-r set? how much was it? and did you find it in a record store in holland? (wow!)

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Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

Talking about MCIS vinyl. I found a Dutch seller online that claims to have a numbered YELLOW VINYL 3LP, for US$ 249.99. Does any of you have that, or heard about it? I have asked him about it anyway, will let you know the answers.

It starts to feel like we are flooded nowadays with new, unknown vinyl… Or are the Dutch bootleg pressingmoulds running like crazy these days? I wonder…

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
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Keymaster
On manillascissor wrote:

First impression, WTF, aka, bootleg. First impression though.

in my time of dying
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Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

Talking about MCIS vinyl. I found a Dutch seller online that claims to have a numbered YELLOW VINYL 3LP, for US$ 249.99. Does any of you have that, or heard about it? I have asked him about it anyway, will let you know the answers.

It starts to feel like we are flooded nowadays with new, unknown vinyl… Or are the Dutch bootleg pressingmoulds running like crazy these days? I wonder…[/quote:2dy72dpn]there was one on ebay not so long ago (two months maybe).

the seller was german. i asked him for more pictures, because the auction was only showing the mcis front artwork, but i never got any reaction. i hope you can get pictures from this dutch seller. i also wonder if they’re housed in a typical mcis 3lp sleeve, or if it’s different. the ebay auction kind of suggested that it might be different. (maybe this is just me not understanding german too well…)

of course this has to be a bootleg.

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

Here’s the conversation in Dutch. He claims he thinks it’s no bootleg, and he provides the same matrix codes as on the recently surfaced black unnumbered vinyl. I asked for pics and more backgroundinfo. Anything else you want to know guys? He seems rather helpful so far.

On 11/20/07, 04:57PM, SPfreaks wrote:
Hoi! Ik kwam toevallig deze genummerde MCIS geel vinyl tegen, klopt dat? Ik ken alleen de zwarte vinyl? Alvast bedankt voor je antwoord! Groeten, SPfreaks.

On 11/20/07, 11:42PM, plastikfantastik wrote:
ja dat klopt inderdaad = geel vinyl

On 11/20/07, 11:50PM, SPfreaks wrote:
Dank je wel! Kun je me dan nog wat meer info verstrekken? Want ik koop liever geen bootleg oid. Ik heb nog niet gehoord dat deze MCIS op geel vinyl is uitgebracht, dus dat zal dan vrij recent gebeurd zijn? Kan jij 100% bevestigen dat dit een echte HUT/Virgin release is, en geen bootleg? Kun je me het nummer geven op de hoes (je plaatje toont een genummerde MCIS, met een wit hokje op de voorkant, waar zoals bij MCIS vinyl, een nummer in hoort te staan).

Ook wil ik graag de matrix nummers weten die aan het eind van de groef in het vinyl zijn geperst. Kun je me die geven aub?

Alvast bedankt!
Arthur

sent by plastikfantastik to SPfreaks on 20-Nov-07 11:59 PM
HI arthur

is bij mijn weten geen bootleg. STaat als eerst geen wit hokje op de voorkant met nummer. is gemaakt in de EU

matrix code op de LPs = HUTTLP 30, matrix code in de groef is\":7243 8 41655 (en dan A, B, C, D, E, F) erachter afhankelijk van welke kant je pakt. is uiteraard een gatefold cover (openslaand) met een geprint boekwerk met alle teksten en tekengingen.

mocht je nog meer willen weten hoor ik het graag,
mvg.
Vincent

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
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Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

maybe they just made the same bootleg in different colours? you know, just like that \"machina promo\", that came on picture disc and on two different vinyl colours.

anyone knows how they press these bootlegs? would they have acquired the original mcis 3lp pressing plates? is it easy to create these when you have one of the original vinyls? or did they just take the cd, and used that to create new pressing plates?
maybe the audio/mastering quality of these new mcis 3lps is far inferior to the original mcis 3lps?

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Keymaster
On manillascissor wrote:

Good question. You know, ever since people started to pay over $200 for the original pressing, I guess it’s not surprising that someone would make bootlegs of it. I have no idea how that would happen. And it seems like it would be a rather involved process, but in the end, maybe worth it? I’m not sure. I’m actually interested in acquiring these, even if they are bootlegs. Not for $200 though. Maybe $20 at best.

in my time of dying
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Member
On BleedingTheOrchid wrote:

maybe they just made the same bootleg in different colours? you know, just like that "machina promo", that came on picture disc and on two different vinyl colours.

anyone knows how they press these bootlegs? would they have acquired the original mcis 3lp pressing plates? is it easy to create these when you have one of the original vinyls? or did they just take the cd, and used that to create new pressing plates?
maybe the audio/mastering quality of these new mcis 3lps is far inferior to the original mcis 3lps?[/quote:kbp1ovjd]
yeah while back i read about making lps at home, wait let me find back. here you go http://www.vestax.com/v/products/recorders/vrx2000.html so yeah they can make it themselves from cd. but for making profit you needs tons of lps and sleeves right. thats not easy. and how would they get the pressing plates from the record company? guess not as the matrix numbers are different anyway

Emptiness is loneliness, and loneliness is cleanlinessAnd cleanliness is godliness, and god is empty just like meIntoxicated with the madness, I'm in love with my sadness
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

the matrix numbers on these vinyls are handcut (is this how you say this?), if i’m not mistaken. they could have set whatever they wanted.

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

i was just wondering what options there were to make these vinyls. pressing plates is just one of them. i also have no idea how one would get ahold of those, but it would make sense. if you don’t have these, making bootleg vinyls becomes a lot harder, i can imagine.

cd: not really an option here, unless they got tonite reprise and infinite sadness elsewhere.
if they used the cd as source, it should be easy to notice the differences between these vinyls and the official ones. the chance that they have a result that is (apparently) identical to the official release is very small. simply getting the gaps between the tracks right would already be amazing, especially if you consider they’re bootleggers who’re in it for the money.

if they used that machine you posted a link to, they could of course just have played the original vinyl and fed it to the machine. gaps will match, but audio quality will be less. not sure how easily noticeable the decreased audio quality would be though.

Profile photo of bleedingtheorchid
Member
On BleedingTheOrchid wrote:

if they used that machine you posted a link to, they could of course just have played the original vinyl and fed it to the machine. gaps will match, but audio quality will be less. not sure how easily noticeable the decreased audio quality would be though.[/quote:3lc2rkc0]
theres a trick to do this with home recordings. i never tried but thats how they make cds sound better more close to lp dynamics. afterwards they put it back on cd and record back to lp then put it back on cd. and so on.

geezz it took me ages but here i found it this is what i mean i found it on another forum while back

Bang goes my asking if you do a needle drop of your newly created vinyl. :sigh:

Phil, LOL, sure you make a CD-R of it, according to this link (see below) it will sound better than the original CD, then you can use the CD-R to cut an even better vinyl and just keep repeating the process until you have the perfect sound that will last forever. :D

http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part4.html

Emptiness is loneliness, and loneliness is cleanlinessAnd cleanliness is godliness, and god is empty just like meIntoxicated with the madness, I'm in love with my sadness
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Member
On BleedingTheOrchid wrote:

i was just wondering what options there were to make these vinyls. pressing plates is just one of them. i also have no idea how one would get ahold of those, but it would make sense. if you don’t have these, making bootleg vinyls becomes a lot harder, i can imagine.[/quote:hqdbpmfi]
no i guess not cool but im no expert. they used to make bootlegs on vinyl long before cd was there for live recordings even in the sixties of beatles and led zep and on. theres probably even machinery to create pressing plates from casettes music and theres probably lots of lp factories also

Emptiness is loneliness, and loneliness is cleanlinessAnd cleanliness is godliness, and god is empty just like meIntoxicated with the madness, I'm in love with my sadness
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Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

Latest emails from Vincent, the MCIS yellow vinyl seller:

\"HI Arthur

Ik weet zelf ook niet meer waar die vandaan komt, ik heb em al wel een tijdje in mijn bezit,.
Een digitale foto wordt moeilijk ben ik bang. Maar de plaat is een beetje doorzichtig geel zeg maar (zoals bier :)

Ik heb de zwarte versie zelf ook, en die heeft inderdaad wel een nummer op de voorkant.\"

(It’s in his possession already for a long time, he doesn’t know where it comes from, having hard times to take a digital pic, but the color is transparant yellow like beer. He also owns the numbered black vinyl. Then I told him we are not that interested, too expensive, and most likely a bootleg, and asked him if he knows ANYTHING that could change our minds. He came up with a little but interesting detail.)

\"Hi Arthur

Ik heb deze plaat in 1997 (staat met potlood in binnekant hoes) gekocht,ik zou echt niet meer weten waar ie vandaan komt eerlijk gezegd das al bijna 10 jaar geleden !!\"

He bought it in 1997 he found out, as that was pencilmarked inside the sleeve… Furthermore (not copied on the post here) he states to have more Pumpkins vinyl records (lots of them sealed) and amongst them at least the yellow Pisces Iscariot. He will make a list of it and send it to me.

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
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Participant
On breun wrote:

Can anyone confirm the MCIS 3LP is really re-released? I’d rather get the re-release for €35 then pay through the nose for the original release.

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Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

right now this is absolutely not confirmed.

like i said earlier, i contacted my record store owner and he couldn’t find it. if this was released in the netherlands, he should be able to order it too, since he orders a lot of things in the netherlands. (i’m in belgium, by the way.)

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

right now this is absolutely not confirmed.[/quote:242aexjs]
Exactly. And I’m confused that 1 person has this unnumbered yellow MCIS vinyl since 1997, as he claims, and they all seem to appear only lately, like in the last year or something. They all have the same handwritten matrixcodes as the unnumbered black MCIS vinyl I bought this weekend at the Utrecht record fair. Though not sealed, it looks like it was pressed only yesterday. Really, I’m very confused. Some call it a bootleg, some don’t know.

I have a new thought about it however, tell me what you guys think.

-Let’s just presume these unnumbered MCIS vinyls (yellow and black) are legit and genuine Virgin releases.
-Let’s presume they were pressed in 1996/1997, at the same time when they pressed the numbered HUT release.
-Let’s presume there were 2 pressing plants for this release, with 2 sets of pressing plates. One was in the UK, the other one was in Holland or elsewhere in Europe.
-Let’s presume the sleeves were pressed also on 2 different locations, close to the vinyl pressing plants.
-Let’s presume the European sleeve went wrong, they forgot to include the white box for the number. (Or maybe no number was intended after all for a part of the MCIS vinyl?)
-Let’s presume Virgin decided to pay the bill for this (wrong?) press after all, but put the whole pressing run in stock and forgot about it for a long time (except for a few, like the yellow one). They focused on releasing the numbered version.
-Let’s presume this unnumbered stock came to the market after all about a year ago, when 1 wholesale company bought it. I can image with the raising interest in the Smashing Pumpkins the last year, there would be more interest in this vinyl also, by wholesale guys that have a nose for some quick money.

So here they are, they come to the market only lately, still looking new. It can’t be ordered anywhere, as they are not there officially, as Virgin has no stock left. And the distributors don’t know anything either, as these left-overs were bought by a lucky wholeseller.

I come to this way of thinking, as I try to think out of the box. Just trying guys, don’t flame me! :P Not that long ago we researched a Virgin inhouse tape, which didn’t make sense at all at first sight. A hoax pretty well done, was the first conclusion. But after all it turned out to be a genuine tape. Only because the background information came from trustworthy people. The story can be read elsewhere on this board.

And when I look at this release (got one here)… there are no flaws on it. It is an MCIS vinyl, as it should be. Sure, without the numberbox and with different matrixcodes on the vinyl, but with all official details, booklet, codes, labels, everything. All known Pumpkins vinyl booties have a very obvious flaw, this one hasn’t (so far). There are 2 things against my story… I can’t compare it on the spot with a numbered copy, maybe the flaws are very obvious then. And we have no trustworthy seller yet with a good story.

Does this scenario make sense? What do you think?

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of breun
Participant
On breun wrote:

Can’t you just ask Virgin somehow, maybe?

I’d sure like to have the MCIS 3LP set, but I don’t like buying bootlegs of official releases.

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Participant
On Sven wrote:

i’d say it’s all legit
dunno – it doesn’t seem to make any sense to bootlegpress a 3LP set because of the hassle and cost going into it – it’s a hell of a job especially with a lavish production as MCIS with the gatefold sleeve and booklet. bootleg LPs i know of like the Lateralus LP for TOOL (before they released it properly on vinyl) or the MACHINA 1LP 12\" coloured vinyl are poorly produced knock-offs.
as this one doesn’t seem to be just that – i’d say it might be a little bit strange and all, but still legit

what i’m curious about is the yellow one, now: i’d like to see scans of that one!

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

Here’s another one with a white box on front, but no number.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SMASHING-PUMPKINS … 0172572129

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."

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