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Forum: Collecting Items

Topic: Re-issues PLUME (for the archives)

This topic contains 20 replies, has 3,094 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Sven Sven 4 years, 10 months ago.

On Sven wrote:

I was just going through the deluxe re-issues released so far in anticipation of the MCIS re-issues, which will be in stores in The Netherlands tomorrow…

I went through some of the discussions on here on the song Plume.
I just wanted to get things straight for my own records/archive and this is what I think to be correct now.

PLUME
available on | version

I Am One (cds/10”/12”) | original version
Pisces Iscariot (cd/lp/lp+7”) | original version

Gish (deluxe re-issue cd) | 2011 mix > a new mix of the original version
Pisces Iscariot (re-issue cd/lp) | “remastered mix” > a new version, with different vocal take and some other slight differences

* Plume 2011 mix is the one that should have been on the re-issue Pisces Iscariot.
* Plume (“remastered mix”) is the one that should have been on the re-issue Gish deluxe.
* no word as of yet (still) of a possible ‘fix’ for this error.
* unsure if the downloads for the re-issue Pisces Iscariot and the re-issue Gish deluxe have swapped the tracks to have the correct version on the corresponding release.

refer to: http://forum.spfreaks.com/viewtopic.php … me&start=0

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

i believe they replaced plume on the pisces iscariot reissue download with a version that sounds more like the original.
not sure if they replaced it with the 2011 mix that was on the gish reissue bonus track, or with a slightly louder version of the original version. i might try and check that out, as i should have all releases somewhere.

also, saying that the 2011 mix was intended to go on the pisces iscariot reissue, and that the new version from the pisces iscariot reissue was intended to go on the gish reissue bonus disc is pure speculation, right? this hasn’t been confirmed, or has it?

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

PLUME
available on | version

I Am One (cds/10”/12”) | original version[/quote:2t0crlob]
since we’re going for complete correctness: plume is not on the 10" release of i am one.

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

also, saying that the 2011 mix was intended to go on the pisces iscariot reissue, and that the new version from the pisces iscariot reissue was intended to go on the gish reissue bonus disc is pure speculation, right? this hasn’t been confirmed, or has it?[/quote:1x01itoe]
actually, i don’t believe that the 2011 mix was supposed to go on the pisces iscariot reissue.

the 2011 mixes on the gish reissue had this idea behind them: let the producers from then mix the song again today. this is why butch vig and kerry brown remixed a couple of songs: they were in charge of them back when they were first recorded.

the idea behind the remastered albums: remastering the album. this does not include making new mixes of the songs. (with the exception of soothe. this song was mixed again, on purpose. bc mentioned this somewhere, i remember.)
i think they simply messed up the remastering of plume. and that’s it. the remastered version didn’t get mistaken for the 2011 mix.

just my opinion. i don’t really see anything that backs up the mix up theory, so i’m not going with it. feel free to give some arguments that support the mix up theory.
i don’t have the music with me right now, so i can’t check myself, but is this mainly based on the fact that the 2011 mix sounds very similar to the original version, and then the "remaster" sounds nothing like the original? or do you have other reasons to believe the two were mixed up?

didn’t they remaster pisces iscariot after gish and siamese dream were already reissued? if so, how could the two versions get mixed up? one was already released before the other one was created.
or was the pisces iscariot remaster already done while they were still working on the gish reissue bonus disc? i didn’t think so, but i can be wrong.

Profile photo of king of gloom
Member
On King of Gloom wrote:

I believe the remastering for PI started a month, maybe a few months, after SD/Gish were released. Mixing them up – no pun intended – wouldn’t be the case then. I just don’t get why they didn’t notice that the complete vocal track was different! Couldn’t it be intended (although I really don’t know what would be the idea behind that)?

'May the king of gloom be forever doomed'
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

well, i’ve compared the original version to the 2011 mix and to the 2012 reissue version, and i can’t figure it out.

the biggest difference to me is indeed the different vocal take on the 2012 reissue version.
if they mixed up the 2011 mix with the remastered version or not, this is absolutely not done. this one thing ruins the pisces iscariot remaster for me. i still feel disappointed about this. an explanation might help.

and i’m sure i downloaded different versions of the pisces iscariot reissue download, but now i can’t find them anywhere. so i can’t check and confirm they replaced the reissue version of plume (present on all cds and vinyl records) from the download with a normal/fixed version.
maybe later, if i can find my files back.

Profile photo of Sven
Participant
On Sven wrote:
PLUME
available on | version

I Am One (cds/10”/12”) | original version[/quote:1jwzrojm]
since we’re going for complete correctness: plume is not on the 10" release of i am one.[/quote:1jwzrojm]

woops, of course! silly me.

Profile photo of Sven
Participant
On Sven wrote:

i believe they replaced plume on the pisces iscariot reissue download with a version that sounds more like the original.
not sure if they replaced it with the 2011 mix that was on the gish reissue bonus track, or with a slightly louder version of the original version. i might try and check that out, as i should have all releases somewhere.

also, saying that the 2011 mix was intended to go on the pisces iscariot reissue, and that the new version from the pisces iscariot reissue was intended to go on the gish reissue bonus disc is pure speculation, right? this hasn’t been confirmed, or has it?[/quote:35xvcfzj]

confirmation > no not very hard
but, I did ask around and get a message from someone at the record company over here in The Netherlands the wrong Plume was used on the Gish re-issue which they knew when that was released, thus, even before the release of PI re-issue.

Profile photo of Sven
Participant
On Sven wrote:
also, saying that the 2011 mix was intended to go on the pisces iscariot reissue, and that the new version from the pisces iscariot reissue was intended to go on the gish reissue bonus disc is pure speculation, right? this hasn’t been confirmed, or has it?[/quote:dhbgbi1p]
actually, i don’t believe that the 2011 mix was supposed to go on the pisces iscariot reissue.

the 2011 mixes on the gish reissue had this idea behind them: let the producers from then mix the song again today. this is why butch vig and kerry brown remixed a couple of songs: they were in charge of them back when they were first recorded.

the idea behind the remastered albums: remastering the album. this does not include making new mixes of the songs. (with the exception of soothe. this song was mixed again, on purpose. bc mentioned this somewhere, i remember.)
i think they simply messed up the remastering of plume. and that’s it. the remastered version didn’t get mistaken for the 2011 mix.

just my opinion. i don’t really see anything that backs up the mix up theory, so i’m not going with it. feel free to give some arguments that support the mix up theory.
i don’t have the music with me right now, so i can’t check myself, but is this mainly based on the fact that the 2011 mix sounds very similar to the original version, and then the "remaster" sounds nothing like the original? or do you have other reasons to believe the two were mixed up?

didn’t they remaster pisces iscariot after gish and siamese dream were already reissued? if so, how could the two versions get mixed up? one was already released before the other one was created.
or was the pisces iscariot remaster already done while they were still working on the gish reissue bonus disc? i didn’t think so, but i can be wrong.[/quote:dhbgbi1p]

maybe not a mix-up per se.
but…

Gish was remastered from the original masters. so was Plume for the Gish re-issue.
now, the master reel for Plume 2011 mix is the one used for the single and for PI. this is just a slightly new mix.
the master reel used for PI is an alltogether different version.
they clearly did not use the same original master reel for PI.

in the process of remastering and remixing with hunderds of reels going back and forth i believe it to be possible things got messed up somewhere along the line. it would make some sense to go out and let Plume be remixed and remastered when you’ve dug up the master reels and not wait until you’re starting work on the PI as an album as a whole.

however, it is indeed not known if it was in fact the 2011 mix that was supposed to be on PI and the other one on the Gish re-issue. it would make some sense, but this we just do not know as of now…

Profile photo of Sven
Participant
On Sven wrote:

well, i’ve compared the original version to the 2011 mix and to the 2012 reissue version, and i can’t figure it out.

the biggest difference to me is indeed the different vocal take on the 2012 reissue version.
if they mixed up the 2011 mix with the remastered version or not, this is absolutely not done. this one thing ruins the pisces iscariot remaster for me. i still feel disappointed about this. an explanation might help.

and i’m sure i downloaded different versions of the pisces iscariot reissue download, but now i can’t find them anywhere. so i can’t check and confirm they replaced the reissue version of plume (present on all cds and vinyl records) from the download with a normal/fixed version.
maybe later, if i can find my files back.[/quote:5b4ov63d]

it does kinda ruin PI for me too with this new version included in there. for no apparent reason whatsoever.

Profile photo of king of gloom
Member
On King of Gloom wrote:

it does kinda ruin PI for me too with this new version included in there. for no apparent reason whatsoever.[/quote:1hqg0ufg]

I know what you mean. I don’t feel like playing it just because of Plume.. Which sounds pretty stupid if you think about it.

'May the king of gloom be forever doomed'
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

in the process of remastering and remixing with hunderds of reels going back and forth i believe it to be possible things got messed up somewhere along the line.

however, it is indeed not known if it was in fact the 2011 mix that was supposed to be on PI and the other one on the Gish re-issue. it would make some sense, but this we just do not know as of now…[/quote:2jx38w2a]
agreed.

they clearly used the wrong masters for plume on the pisces reissue.
it could be that they mixed up the two versions, but it could also just be a mistake when they started working on the pisces reissue plume.

i still think it’s not a mix up: normally they don’t use different vocal takes when remixing a track. so it’s unlikely that the version that is on the pisces reissue was supposed to go on the gish bonus disc under the name "2011 mix". if this version with the different vocal take was supposed to go on the bonus disc, they would have called it "alternate version" or "early version" or something along those lines, and not "2011 kerry brown mix".

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

but, I did ask around and get a message from someone at the record company over here in The Netherlands the wrong Plume was used on the Gish re-issue which they knew when that was released, thus, even before the release of PI re-issue.[/quote:1cfuwwpx]
how would someone at the record company in the netherlands know that the wrong version of plume was put on the bonus disc? in what way are they part of the whole reissue process that they would be given that information?

anyway, if this is true, then it’s possible that the gish bonus disc contains the "remaster", i guess.
but this doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a mix up: it’s also possible that the kerry brown 2011 mix never got released anywhere, and yet another version ended up on the pisces iscariot reissue. maybe even intentional. maybe they didn’t want to release the remaster twice, so they made a new version to go on the pisces iscariot reissue? dunno.

Profile photo of Sven
Participant
On Sven wrote:
in the process of remastering and remixing with hunderds of reels going back and forth i believe it to be possible things got messed up somewhere along the line.

however, it is indeed not known if it was in fact the 2011 mix that was supposed to be on PI and the other one on the Gish re-issue. it would make some sense, but this we just do not know as of now…[/quote:3elqwgke]
agreed.

they clearly used the wrong masters for plume on the pisces reissue.
it could be that they mixed up the two versions, but it could also just be a mistake when they started working on the pisces reissue plume.

i still think it’s not a mix up: normally they don’t use different vocal takes when remixing a track. so it’s unlikely that the version that is on the pisces reissue was supposed to go on the gish bonus disc under the name "2011 mix". if this version with the different vocal take was supposed to go on the bonus disc, they would have called it "alternate version" or "early version" or something along those lines, and not "2011 kerry brown mix".[/quote:3elqwgke]

yep, wrong masters used.

agreed, but i can imagine the set of masters reels for the 2011 mix was the one supposed to be remixed for inclusion on PI. that’s all.

Profile photo of Sven
Participant
On Sven wrote:
but, I did ask around and get a message from someone at the record company over here in The Netherlands the wrong Plume was used on the Gish re-issue which they knew when that was released, thus, even before the release of PI re-issue.[/quote:2vny8ze7]
how would someone at the record company in the netherlands know that the wrong version of plume was put on the bonus disc? in what way are they part of the whole reissue process that they would be given that information?

anyway, if this is true, then it’s possible that the gish bonus disc contains the "remaster", i guess.
but this doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a mix up: it’s also possible that the kerry brown 2011 mix never got released anywhere, and yet another version ended up on the pisces iscariot reissue. maybe even intentional. maybe they didn’t want to release the remaster twice, so they made a new version to go on the pisces iscariot reissue? dunno.[/quote:2vny8ze7]

dunno; i just got the word that someone knew there had been an issue with Plume. that’s all.

agreed, no mix up but just a mistake along the lines.

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

agreed, but i can imagine the set of masters reels for the 2011 mix was the one supposed to be remixed for inclusion on PI. that’s all.[/quote:wkh1udvu]
yep. i would think that the set of of master reels for both versions (2011 mix and 2012 remaster) was supposed to be the same.

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

also, i found the pisces iscariot reissue downloads again. i’ve got it in different formats, but all of them have a \"corrected\" plume version.

i haven’t been able to tell if it’s the \"2011 mix\" that appeared on the gish reissue, or if it’s just the original version they pumped up a bit (i’ve read this theory online), or if it’s yet another version.
maybe someone else, with decent ears, can check and compare? shall i upload one or more versions somewhere?

Profile photo of manillascissor
Keymaster
On manillascissor wrote:

i think it’d be cool if you uploaded them, but i don’t have an ear for that. i know a few people around here have sophisticated software they can run diagnostics on.

in my time of dying
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

i’ve uploaded a couple of different plumes here: http://www.mediafire.com/?yc9dcamq84e4g
– the original ’92 i am one cd single version
– the ’94 pisces iscariot cd version (should be same version as the ’92 version)
– the \"2011 mix\" that was included on the gish reissue bonus disc — according to sven’s source at the record company, something was wrong with this
– the 2012 \"remastered\" version with the alternate vocal take, that was included on the pisces iscariot reissue
– the \"fix\" of the \"remastered\" version, that was included in all the provided reissue downloads (the file i uploaded is a 24 bit file, as i don’t have the normal 16 bit download)

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

has anyone taken the time to listen to these? or analyse them in their sound labs?

can you hear differences between the mix of the original release and the 2011 mix?

what do you think about the \"fix\" they provided in the digital downloads? is it just the original version, with the volume levels increased, like i read on some forums?

Profile photo of Sven
Participant
On Sven wrote:

has anyone taken the time to listen to these? or analyse them in their sound labs?

can you hear differences between the mix of the original release and the 2011 mix?

what do you think about the "fix" they provided in the digital downloads? is it just the original version, with the volume levels increased, like i read on some forums?[/quote:16rsbsif]

i can’t do a full check in ‘the lab’.

trusting my ears though; the 2011 mix is the original version remastered.

the fix is the same one.

the one on PI is the different version (not just the mix/remastering).

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