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Forum: Collecting Items

Topic: Value question German M2 promo acetate

This topic contains 20 replies, has 2,066 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of bleedingtheorchid BleedingTheOrchid 10 years, 2 months ago.

On BleedingTheOrchid wrote:

Just wondering –
The UK set of MACHINA II cdr promos is rare enough to fetch some money.
The USA set of MACHINA II cdr promos is much rare and fetches even more.
USA Masterdisk and Virgin gold cdr promos are even more rare and more valuable; i.e. fetch crazy sums of money.

Now seeing this one on this site: http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … S&item=553
What would you reckon to be in the cards valuewise for an item like this?
Looks nice to me, I’ve never seen a copy pop up somewhere in the collector’s market. but this one…

Just wondering….

Profile photo of manillascissor
Keymaster
On manillascissor wrote:

Just wondering –
The UK set of MACHINA II cdr promos is rare enough to fetch some money.
The USA set of MACHINA II cdr promos is much rare and fetches even more.
USA Masterdisk and Virgin gold cdr promos are even more rare and more valuable; i.e. fetch crazy sums of money.

Now seeing this one on this site: http://www.spfreaks.com/Default.aspx?pa … S&item=553
What would you reckon to be in the cards valuewise for an item like this?
Looks nice to me, I’ve never seen a copy pop up somewhere in the collector’s market. but this one…

Just wondering….[/quote:3be0r50k]

I’d say that would fetch ridiculous amounts of $$$$. Reason being, its rarity (probably only one) and also the fact that it’s Billy’s handwriting. I’d pay upwards of $500 for it.

What Masterdisk/Virgin gold CDR Machina II promos are you referring to? I thought only the UK and US sets existed. Plus the (one) German promo.

in my time of dying
Profile photo of Sven
Participant
On Sven wrote:

the Masterdisks I referred to are like the Untitled and MCIS ones on this site.

well yeah – if i’m not mistaken the insert in the M2 German promo is a photocopy of the insert that came with the original cdr corgan gave to Virgin Germany to have duplicated and sent out to relations.
this item is a pretty much very limited gift copy of the actual disc corgan presented, but not the actual disc with corgan’s handwriting on it – seems to say so in the press release.
so there have to be more copies – how many i don’t know.
still i haven’t seen another one pop up making this a rather special artefact nonetheless….

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

the Masterdisks I referred to are like the Untitled and MCIS ones on this site.[/quote:37l7magr]
are you sure they exist for machina II?

Profile photo of Sven
Participant
On Sven wrote:

ehm nope guys
i didn’t mean to be referring to M2 Masterdisk discs
sorry 4 the confusion
i just meant that for Masterdisks (which are cool!) a nice value is to be expected
plus: that for less cool (IMHO) Virgin gold cdr disc promos a lot is payed
and i just thought: well, if those fetch some good money, and if the UK and USA promos for M2 fetch some good money, how about this one; I wasn’t referring to the possible existence of Masterdisk M2 cdrs, because I don’t think there will be any, will there? the vinyl is un-mastered as far as I know; all tracks except for the ones that ended up on GH/JO are unmastered so… i guess not and once again: sorry for any confusion my words may have caused ;)

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

I wasn’t referring to the possible existence of Masterdisk M2 cdrs, because I don’t think there will be any[/quote:lyoyn8qf]i was thinking the same thing. it wouldn’t make much sense.

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

and a question in response to your original question: do you know if the audio on that german promo is identical to one of the well-spread sources (spifc, q101, virgin)? or if not, is it inferior to those?

i don’t remember where i heard this, but somewhere in my memory it says this source isn’t really that good. i might be wrong.
anyway, this could have an influence on what people might want to pay for it. i mean, sure, it is rare as hell, but if it turns out to be sourced from mp3s from a source that runs a bit too fast, for example, then it loses a lot of its magic, in my opinion.

Profile photo of manillascissor
Keymaster
On manillascissor wrote:

and a question in response to your original question: do you know if the audio on that german promo is identical to one of the well-spread sources (spifc, q101, virgin)? or if not, is it inferior to those?

i don’t remember where i heard this, but somewhere in my memory it says this source isn’t really that good. i might be wrong.
anyway, this could have an influence on what people might want to pay for it. i mean, sure, it is rare as hell, but if it turns out to be sourced from mp3s from a source that runs a bit too fast, for example, then it loses a lot of its magic, in my opinion.[/quote:1r3hyn6f]

That’s actually a pretty valid point. I kind of overlooked why people obsess over obtaining the official M2 Virgin promos, being that they are sourced from the highest quality. If the DE promo is of lesser quality, I’d still be willing to shell out $500, just due to rarity, but I can understand others not wanting to spend a lot on such an inferior quality copy (if that is in fact true).

in my time of dying
Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

The only thing I can tell is that I have received the pics from a contributor a long time ago (2 years ago? 3 years ago? I have no idea…), and put them online. It’s not in my collection yet unfortunately. As it comes with a genuine looking letter, it looks very original to me and definately worth a price above average. However it’s not Billy’s original handwriting, but a copy of it. Cool As Ice Cream is right with his question about the quality of the tracks, they should be ok to label this beauty with an according price. But as the letter states it was a \"CD-Master\" given to Virgin Germany, and if they copied it directly to these promo CD’s I presume the quality is kinda alright.

The stupid thing with these kind of items is that you can sometimes run into them on record fairs for just a few bucks, or find them on a rather unknown internet shop for almost nothing. It always needs a seller and a small or big market to determine the price for this thingy. There is also no reference to any sale or auctioning of this CD, as far as I know. My wildest guess would be that around 25-50 copies were made of this CD-Master, and my wildest guess for an average collectors price would be somewhere between 200-300 US$. When less: lucky buyer! When more: lucky seller!

Hope this helps a bit.

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

Wouldn’t they call any cd they use to make a couple of promo copies a \"master cd\", no matter what the quality is?

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

Wouldn’t they call any cd they use to make a couple of promo copies a "master cd", no matter what the quality is?[/quote:99zbt8kp]
True, I guess so. But think of it. Billy and the Pumpkins come to Europe, and Billy takes a few CD’s with him to play in the tourbus, or let some record company bobo’s here and there listen to it. Kinda "look what I did, and you missed out". The letter states otherwise by the way, but whatever. Billy creates the vinyl, and burns this CD (or a few), most probably from the same studio master. Like this his copy is well sourced, and so is the copy given away by Virgin Germany. Because they didn’t create new artwork for it, and only a 1 page letter, I guess it was just a fun thing for them to do for a little group of people. When Virgin Germany figured out who of the receivers is most likely a Pumpkins fan, it might be unlikely that many copies of this promo pop up on the collectors market. This would explain a bit higher price: the availability and the high quality of the tracks. As far as I know the US and UK 4CD promo sets are all vinyl sourced, this Virgin Germany CD might have a source higher up in the ranks. Untill any of us has listened and properly researched this, nobody can tell. These are my "guts feelings" guesses for the moment.

And I’m hoping to find it someday, for example on the "Mega Platen en CD Beurs" in Utrecht Holland, the biggest record fair in the world (as they claim themselves, it’s organized every year in April & November, for your information). For just 5-25 EURO because some shopowner doesn’t know what it is and he thinks yeah well, all handwritten stuff, wtf is this, let’s see if some stupid guy (which would be me 8) ) is willing to pay something for it. With this attitude I found many French Delabel promo’s, Machina early acetates and so on, in Utrecht and elsewhere. Be patient, and not the whole market is on the internet, that’s my tip to all collectors…

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

Billy creates the vinyl, and burns this CD (or a few), most probably from the same studio master.[/quote:aexwn01f]
i think he let someone else create the cd (he can’t do this himself), sourced from a vinyl.

all machina II’s out there are vinyl sourced.

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

i think he let someone else create the cd (he can’t do this himself), sourced from a vinyl. all machina II’s out there are vinyl sourced.[/quote:ebrpq8rc]
Why are you against the idea that this CD "could" be from a better source as vinyl? Just put it in a timeframe; they record tracks as late as July 2000 (for example White Spyder @ CRC), the vinyl must be pressed in August then, maybe early September, the 25 vinyl sets are "released" (given away) on 2000/09/05 and on 2000/09/16 the Pumpkins are conquering Europe (Germany) already. Meanwhile this specific CD is patiently waiting in the tourbus, ready to be given away soon.

Billy is indeed not the greatest technician, but why not ask for 1 or a few cd’s in the vinyl pressing factory? Or the other way around, how did he bring the tracks for MII to the vinyl pressing factory? The latter could mean he might have given away… the handwritten CD Master! I’m not straight away buying it that Billy plays 2 records (or let someone else play 2 records) just to get this CD.

Again, all this is pure speculation from my side, as I have not listened, let alone researched this beauty.

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

that would make no sense at all.

i don’t feel like backing this all up right now, but i think the fact that the virgin in-house promos were vinyl sourced, says it all.

Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

i did some searching and this is all i could come up with for now: http://forums.netphoria.org/showpost.ph … stcount=50

I went turntable (don’t know the model offhand) > DAT (M1) > ZeFiro card, and I’m pretty sure I burned CDs for a couple people (Ammy might’ve gotten one, since I think she came over when I did the xfer, and I think TSP asked for a copy from me- didn’t I hear something about the euro boots/promos being sourced from my xfer?), so there -should- be "sped up" lossless copies -somewhere- out there… I probably still have the CDRs somewhere in my mom’s basement, but it’d probably be faster to find someone else with a set. JJB?[/quote:th5ertu5]
so, this isn’t really confirmed, but it explains where i got this idea from that the german promo might be inferior quality, compared to the other ones out there.

if this is true, the german promo contains eric agnew’s "slightly fast thanks to my cheap-ass turntable" transfer of the vinyl. this transfer was widely spread in mp3 format right after machina II came out. according to this quote, lossless copies exist, but these aren’t widely available right now.

i must say though, i also heard this elsewhere (but i can’t find that back right now), which makes it more probable to me that this is actually the true story behind the german machina II promos.

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

Haha I was typing exactly the same story from another source! So I was backing up your idea actually, but not because of the Virgin sets being vinyl sourced alone. As you back it up more detailed I’m now completely with you Cool As Ice Cream. This Virgin Germany CD most likely is a kinda low quality set of tracks. Historical-wise absolutely not interesting, which doesn’t add to it’s value at all. And CD-collectors-wise: nice, cool, must have, but don’t pay to much for it. I still go for my Mega Platen en CD Beurs option.

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

excellent. good luck at the platenbeurs! :wink:

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

excellent. good luck at the platenbeurs! :wink:[/quote:128sbwyu]
Because you’re being sarcastic here I want my 8) back. Thanks. :wink:

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of Cool As Ice Cream
Moderator
On Cool As Ice Cream wrote:

no, i’m not.

Profile photo of Arthur
Moderator
On Arthur wrote:

In that case you’re invited to join in sometime when I go there. Recently I got this phone with internet access, it’s pretty cool to pass the stores and check on your mobile what is in the SPfreaks collection or not. And this reminds me of a few years ago when I went there with 3 friends and when we found something, we just phoned each other to rush to a certain store. Easy job as they are numbered and everybody holds a map with the store numbers. Of course I was the only Smashing Pumpkins collector, so no competition. :D

Sorry guys, for being off-topic a bit :P

Billy Corgan, December 2, 2008 : "Not everyone understands our death trip. But you do. And that's what matters."
Profile photo of bleedingtheorchid
Member
On BleedingTheOrchid wrote:

still its a rare cd guys with that billy writings on it i have promised the wife not to do expensive buys for a while otherwise i would want it when it was around way out of budget for me now :?

Emptiness is loneliness, and loneliness is cleanlinessAnd cleanliness is godliness, and god is empty just like meIntoxicated with the madness, I'm in love with my sadness

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